Theninwhatsortofpartnershipisthejustmanabetterpartnerthantheharp—player，asinplayingtheharptheharp—playeriscertainlyabetterpartnerthanthejustman？
Inamoneypartnership。
Yes，Polemarchus，butsurelynotintheuseofmoney；foryoudonotwantajustmantobeyourcounsellorthepurchaseorsaleofahorse；
amanwhoisknowingabouthorseswouldbebetterforthat，wouldhenot？
Certainly。
Andwhenyouwanttobuyaship，theshipwrightorthepilotwouldbebetter？
True。
Thenwhatisthatjointuseofsilverorgoldinwhichthejustmanistobepreferred？
Whenyouwantadeposittobekeptsafely。
Youmeanwhenmoneyisnotwanted，butallowedtolie？
Precisely。
Thatistosay，justiceisusefulwhenmoneyisuseless？
Thatistheinference。
Andwhenyouwanttokeepapruning—hooksafe，thenjusticeisusefultotheindividualandtothestate；butwhenyouwanttouseit，thentheartofthevine—dresser？
Clearly。
Andwhenyouwanttokeepashieldoralyre，andnottousethem，youwouldsaythatjusticeisuseful；butwhenyouwanttousethem，thentheartofthesoldierorofthemusician？
Certainly。
Andsoofalltheotherthings；——justiceisusefulwhentheyareuseless，anduselesswhentheyareuseful？
Thatistheinference。
Thenjusticeisnotgoodformuch。Butletusconsiderthisfurtherpoint：Isnothewhocanbeststrikeablowinaboxingmatchorinanykindoffightingbestabletowardoffablow？
Certainly。
Andhewhoismostskilfulinpreventingorescapingfromadiseaseisbestabletocreateone？
True。
Andheisthebestguardofacampwhoisbestabletostealamarchupontheenemy？
Certainly。
Thenhewhoisagoodkeeperofanythingisalsoagoodthief？
That，Isuppose，istobeinferred。
Thenifthejustmanisgoodatkeepingmoney，heisgoodatstealingit。
Thatisimpliedintheargument。
Thenafterallthejustmanhasturnedouttobeathief。AndthisisalessonwhichIsuspectyoumusthavelearntoutofHomer；forhe，speakingofAutolycus，thematernalgrandfatherofOdysseus，whoisafavouriteofhis，affirmsthatHewasexcellentaboveallmenintheftandperjury。
Andso，youandHomerandSimonidesareagreedthatjusticeisanartoftheft；tobepractisedhowever’forthegoodoffriendsandfortheharmofenemies，’——thatwaswhatyouweresaying？
No，certainlynotthat，thoughIdonotnowknowwhatIdidsay；butIstillstandbythelatterwords。
Well，thereisanotherquestion：Byfriendsandenemiesdowemeanthosewhoaresoreally，oronlyinseeming？
Surely，hesaid，amanmaybeexpectedtolovethosewhomhethinksgood，andtohatethosewhomhethinksevil。
Yes，butdonotpersonsoftenerraboutgoodandevil：manywhoarenotgoodseemtobeso，andconversely？
Thatistrue。
Thentothemthegoodwillbeenemiesandtheevilwillbetheirfriends？True。
Andinthatcasetheywillberightindoinggoodtotheevilandeviltothegood？
Clearly。
Butthegoodarejustandwouldnotdoaninjustice？
True。
Thenaccordingtoyourargumentitisjusttoinjurethosewhodonowrong？
Nay，Socrates；thedoctrineisimmoral。
ThenIsupposethatweoughttodogoodtothejustandharmtotheunjust？
Ilikethatbetter。
Butseetheconsequence：——Manyamanwhoisignorantofhumannaturehasfriendswhoarebadfriends，andinthatcaseheoughttodoharmtothem；andhehasgoodenemieswhomheoughttobenefit；
but，ifso，weshallbesayingtheveryoppositeofthatwhichweaffirmedtobethemeaningofSimonides。
Verytrue，hesaid：andIthinkthatwehadbettercorrectanerrorintowhichweseemtohavefallenintheuseofthewords’friend’and’enemy。’
Whatwastheerror，Polemarchus？Iasked。
Weassumedthatheisafriendwhoseemstobeorwhoisthoughtgood。
Andhowistheerrortobecorrected？
Weshouldrathersaythatheisafriendwhois，aswellasseems，good；andthathewhoseemsonly，andisnotgood，onlyseemstobeandisnotafriend；andofanenemythesamemaybesaid。
Youwouldarguethatthegoodareourfriendsandthebadourenemies？
Yes。
Andinsteadofsayingsimplyaswedidatfirst，thatitisjusttodogoodtoourfriendsandharmtoourenemies，weshouldfurthersay：Itisjusttodogoodtoourfriendswhentheyaregoodandharmtoourenemieswhentheyareevil？
Yes，thatappearstometobethetruth。
Butoughtthejusttoinjureanyoneatall？
Undoubtedlyheoughttoinjurethosewhoarebothwickedandhisenemies。
Whenhorsesareinjured，aretheyimprovedordeteriorated？
Thelatter。
Deteriorated，thatistosay，inthegoodqualitiesofhorses，notofdogs？
Yes，ofhorses。
Anddogsaredeterioratedinthegoodqualitiesofdogs，andnotofhorses？
Ofcourse。
Andwillnotmenwhoareinjuredbedeterioratedinthatwhichisthepropervirtueofman？
Certainly。
Andthathumanvirtueisjustice？
Tobesure。
Thenmenwhoareinjuredareofnecessitymadeunjust？
Thatistheresult。
Butcanthemusicianbyhisartmakemenunmusical？
Certainlynot。
Orthehorsemanbyhisartmakethembadhorsemen？
Impossible。
Andcanthejustbyjusticemakemenunjust，orspeakinggeneralcanthegoodbyvirtuemakethembad？
Assuredlynot。
Anymorethanheatcanproducecold？
Itcannot。
Ordroughtmoisture？
Clearlynot。
Norcanthegoodharmanyone？
Impossible。
Andthejustisthegood？
Certainly。
Thentoinjureafriendoranyoneelseisnottheactofajustman，butoftheopposite，whoistheunjust？
Ithinkthatwhatyousayisquitetrue，Socrates。
Thenifamansaysthatjusticeconsistsintherepaymentofdebts，andthatgoodisthedebtwhichamanowestohisfriends，andevilthedebtwhichheowestohisenemies，——tosaythisisnotwise；foritisnottrue，if，ashasbeenclearlyshown，theinjuringofanothercanbeinnocasejust。
Iagreewithyou，saidPolemarchus。
ThenyouandIarepreparedtotakeuparmsagainstanyonewhoattributessuchasayingtoSimonidesorBiasorPittacus，oranyotherwisemanorseer？
Iamquitereadytodobattleatyourside，hesaid。
ShallItellyouwhoseIbelievethesayingtobe？
Whose？
IbelievethatPerianderorPerdiccasorXerxesorIsmeniastheTheban，orsomeotherrichandmightyman，whohadagreatopinionofhisownpower，wasthefirsttosaythatjusticeis’doinggoodtoyourfriendsandharmtoyourenemies。’
Mosttrue，hesaid。
Yes，Isaid；butifthisdefinitionofjusticealsobreaksdown，whatothercanbeoffered？
SeveraltimesinthecourseofthediscussionThrasymachushadmadeanattempttogettheargumentintohisownhands，andhadbeenputdownbytherestofthecompany，whowantedtoheartheend。ButwhenPolemarchusandIhaddonespeakingandtherewasapause，hecouldnolongerholdhispeace；and，gatheringhimselfup，hecameatuslikeawildbeast，seekingtodevourus。Wewerequitepanic—strickenatthesightofhim。
SOCRATES—POLEMARCHUS—THRASYMACHUS
Heroaredouttothewholecompany：Whatfolly。Socrates，hastakenpossessionofyouall？Andwhy，sillybillies，doyouknockundertooneanother？Isaythatifyouwantreallytoknowwhatjusticeis，youshouldnotonlyaskbutanswer，andyoushouldnotseekhonourtoyourselffromtherefutationofanopponent，buthaveyourownanswer；forthereismanyaonewhocanaskandcannotanswer。AndnowIwillnothaveyousaythatjusticeisdutyoradvantageorprofitorgainorinterest，forthissortofnonsensewillnotdoforme；Imusthaveclearnessandaccuracy。
Iwaspanic—strickenathiswords，andcouldnotlookathimwithouttrembling。IndeedIbelievethatifIhadnotfixedmyeyeuponhim，I
shouldhavebeenstruckdumb：butwhenIsawhisfuryrising，Ilookedathimfirst，andwasthereforeabletoreplytohim。
Thrasymachus，Isaid，withaquiver，don’tbeharduponus。
PolemarchusandImayhavebeenguiltyofalittlemistakeintheargument，butIcanassureyouthattheerrorwasnotintentional。
Ifwewereseekingforapieceofgold，youwouldnotimaginethatwewere’knockingundertooneanother，’andsolosingourchanceoffindingit。Andwhy，whenweareseekingforjustice，athingmorepreciousthanmanypiecesofgold，doyousaythatweareweaklyyieldingtooneanotherandnotdoingourutmosttogetatthetruth？Nay，mygoodfriend，wearemostwillingandanxioustodoso，butthefactisthatwecannot。Andifso，youpeoplewhoknowallthingsshouldpityusandnotbeangrywithus。
HowcharacteristicofSocrates！hereplied，withabitterlaugh；
——that’syourironicalstyle！DidInotforesee——haveInotalreadytoldyou，thatwhateverhewasaskedhewouldrefusetoanswer，andtryironyoranyothershuffle，inorderthathemightavoidanswering？
Youareaphilosopher，Thrasymachus，Ireplied，andwellknowthatifyouaskapersonwhatnumbersmakeuptwelve，takingcaretoprohibithimwhomyouaskfromansweringtwicesix，orthreetimesfour，orsixtimestwo，orfourtimesthree，’forthissortofnonsensewillnotdoforme，’——thenobviously，thatisyourwayofputtingthequestion，noonecanansweryou。Butsupposethatheweretoretort，’Thrasymachus，whatdoyoumean？Ifoneofthesenumberswhichyouinterdictbethetrueanswertothequestion，amI
falselytosaysomeothernumberwhichisnottherightone？——isthatyourmeaning？’—Howwouldyouanswerhim？
Justasifthetwocaseswereatallalike！hesaid。
Whyshouldtheynotbe？Ireplied；andeveniftheyarenot，butonlyappeartobesotothepersonwhoisasked，oughthenottosaywhathethinks，whetheryouandIforbidhimornot？
Ipresumethenthatyouaregoingtomakeoneoftheinterdictedanswers？
IdaresaythatImay，notwithstandingthedanger，ifuponreflectionIapproveofanyofthem。
ButwhatifIgiveyouanansweraboutjusticeotherandbetter，hesaid，thananyofthese？Whatdoyoudeservetohavedonetoyou？
Donetome！——asbecomestheignorant，Imustlearnfromthewise——thatiswhatIdeservetohavedonetome。
What，andnopayment！apleasantnotion！
IwillpaywhenIhavethemoney，Ireplied。
SOCRATES—THRASYMACHUS—GLAUCON
Butyouhave，Socrates，saidGlaucon：andyou，Thrasymachus，needbeundernoanxietyaboutmoney，forwewillallmakeacontributionforSocrates。
Yes，hereplied，andthenSocrateswilldoashealwaysdoes——refusetoanswerhimself，buttakeandpulltopiecestheanswerofsomeoneelse。
Why，mygoodfriend，Isaid，howcananyoneanswerwhoknows，andsaysthatheknows，justnothing；andwho，evenifhehassomefaintnotionsofhisown，istoldbyamanofauthoritynottoutterthem？
Thenaturalthingis，thatthespeakershouldbesomeonelikeyourselfwhoprofessestoknowandcantellwhatheknows。Willyouthenkindlyanswer，fortheedificationofthecompanyandofmyself？
GlauconandtherestofthecompanyjoinedinmyrequestandThrasymachus，asanyonemightsee，wasinrealityeagertospeak；forhethoughtthathehadanexcellentanswer，andwoulddistinguishhimself。Butatfirsthetoinsistonmyanswering；atlengthheconsentedtobegin。Behold，hesaid，thewisdomofSocrates；herefusestoteachhimself，andgoesaboutlearningofothers，towhomheneverevensaysthankyou。
ThatIlearnofothers，Ireplied，isquitetrue；butthatIamungratefulIwhollydeny。MoneyIhavenone，andthereforeIpayinpraise，whichisallIhave：andhowreadyIamtopraiseanyonewhoappearstometospeakwellyouwillverysoonfindoutwhenyouanswer；forIexpectthatyouwillanswerwell。
Listen，then，hesaid；Iproclaimthatjusticeisnothingelsethantheinterestofthestronger。Andnowwhydoyounotme？Butofcourseyouwon’t。
Letmefirstunderstandyou，Ireplied。justice，asyousay，istheinterestofthestronger。What，Thrasymachus，isthemeaningofthis？YoucannotmeantosaythatbecausePolydamas，thepancratiast，isstrongerthanweare，andfindstheeatingofbeefconducivetohisbodilystrength，thattoeatbeefisthereforeequallyforourgoodwhoareweakerthanheis，andrightandjustforus？
That’sabominableofyou，Socrates；youtakethewordsinthesensewhichismostdamagingtotheargument。
Notatall，mygoodsir，Isaid；Iamtryingtounderstandthem；andIwishthatyouwouldbealittleclearer。
Well，hesaid，haveyouneverheardthatformsofgovernmentdiffer；
therearetyrannies，andtherearedemocracies，andtherearearistocracies？
Yes，Iknow。
Andthegovernmentistherulingpowerineachstate？
Certainly。
Andthedifferentformsofgovernmentmakelawsdemocratical，aristocratical，tyrannical，withaviewtotheirseveralinterests；
andtheselaws，whicharemadebythemfortheirowninterests，arethejusticewhichtheydelivertotheirsubjects，andhimwhotransgressesthemtheypunishasabreakerofthelaw，andunjust。AndthatiswhatImeanwhenIsaythatinallstatesthereisthesameprincipleofjustice，whichistheinterestofthegovernment；andasthegovernmentmustbesupposedtohavepower，theonlyreasonableconclusionis，thateverywherethereisoneprincipleofjustice，whichistheinterestofthestronger。
NowIunderstandyou，Isaid；andwhetheryouarerightornotI
willtrytodiscover。Butletmeremark，thatindefiningjusticeyouhaveyourselfusedtheword’interest’whichyouforbademetouse。Itistrue，however，thatinyourdefinitionthewords’ofthestronger’areadded。
Asmalladdition，youmustallow，hesaid。
Greatorsmall，nevermindaboutthat：wemustfirstenquirewhetherwhatyouaresayingisthetruth。Nowwearebothagreedthatjusticeisinterestofsomesort，butyougoontosay’ofthestronger’；aboutthisadditionIamnotsosure，andmustthereforeconsiderfurther。
Proceed。
Iwill；andfirsttellme，Doyouadmitthatitisjustorsubjectstoobeytheirrulers？
Ido。
Butaretherulersofstatesabsolutelyinfallible，oraretheysometimesliabletoerr？
Tobesure，hereplied，theyareliabletoerr。
Theninmakingtheirlawstheymaysometimesmakethemrightly，andsometimesnot？
True。
Whentheymakethemrightly，theymakethemagreeablytotheirinterest；whentheyaremistaken，contrarytotheirinterest；youadmitthat？
Yes。
Andthelawswhichtheymakemustbeobeyedbytheirsubjects，——andthatiswhatyoucalljustice？
Doubtless。
Thenjustice，accordingtoyourargument，isnotonlyobediencetotheinterestofthestrongerbutthereverse？
Whatisthatyouaresaying？heasked。
Iamonlyrepeatingwhatyouaresaying，Ibelieve。Butletusconsider：Havewenotadmittedthattherulersmaybemistakenabouttheirowninterestinwhattheycommand，andalsothattoobeythemisjustice？Hasnotthatbeenadmitted？
Yes。
Thenyoumustalsohaveacknowledgedjusticenottobefortheinterestofthestronger，whentherulersunintentionallycommandthingstobedonewhicharetotheirowninjury。Forif，asyousay，justiceistheobediencewhichthesubjectrenderstotheircommands，inthatcase，Owisestofmen，isthereanyescapefromtheconclusionthattheweakerarecommandedtodo，notwhatisfortheinterest，butwhatisfortheinjuryofthestronger？
Nothingcanbeclearer，Socrates，saidPolemarchus。
SOCRATES—CLEITOPHON—POLEMARCHUS—THRASYMACHUS
Yes，saidCleitophon，interposing，ifyouareallowedtobehiswitness。
Butthereisnoneedofanywitness，saidPolemarchus，forThrasymachushimselfacknowledgesthatrulersmaysometimescommandwhatisnotfortheirowninterest，andthatforsubjectstoobeythemisjustice。
Yes，Polemarchus，——Thrasymachussaidthatforsubjectstodowhatwascommandedbytheirrulersisjust。
Yes，Cleitophon，buthealsosaidthatjusticeistheinterestofthestronger，and，whileadmittingboththesepropositions，hefurtheracknowledgedthatthestrongermaycommandtheweakerwhoarehissubjectstodowhatisnotforhisowninterest；whencefollowsthatjusticeistheinjuryquiteasmuchastheinterestofthestronger。
But，saidCleitophon，hemeantbytheinterestofthestrongerwhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterest，——thiswaswhattheweakerhadtodo；andthiswasaffirmedbyhimtobejustice。
Thosewerenothiswords，rejoinedPolemarchus。
SOCRATES—THRASYMACHUS
Nevermind，Ireplied，ifhenowsaysthattheyare，letusaccepthisstatement。Tellme，Thrasymachus，Isaid，didyoumeanbyjusticewhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterest，whetherreallysoornot？
Certainlynot，hesaid。DoyousupposethatIcallhimwhoismistakenthestrongeratthetimewhenheismistaken？
Yes，Isaid，myimpressionwasthatyoudidso，whenyouadmittedthattherulerwasnotinfalliblebutmightbesometimesmistaken。
Youarguelikeaninformer，Socrates。Doyoumean，forexample，thathewhoismistakenaboutthesickisaphysicianinthatheismistaken？orthathewhoerrsinarithmeticorgrammarisanarithmeticianorgrammarianatthemewhenheismakingthemistake，inrespectofthemistake？True，wesaythatthephysicianorarithmeticianorgrammarianhasmadeamistake，butthisisonlyawayofspeaking；forthefactisthatneitherthegrammariannoranyotherpersonofskillevermakesamistakeinsofarasheiswhathisnameimplies；theynoneofthemerrunlesstheirskillfailsthem，andthentheyceasetobeskilledartists。Noartistorsageorrulererrsatthetimewhenheiswhathisnameimplies；thoughheiscommonlysaidtoerr，andIadoptedthecommonmodeofspeaking。Buttobeperfectlyaccurate，sinceyouaresuchaloverofaccuracy，weshouldsaythattheruler，insofarasheistheruler，isunerring，and，beingunerring，alwayscommandsthatwhichisforhisowninterest；andthesubjectisrequiredtoexecutehiscommands；andtherefore，asIsaidatfirstandnowrepeat，justiceistheinterestofthestronger。
Indeed，Thrasymachus，anddoIreallyappeartoyoutoarguelikeaninformer？
Certainly，hereplied。
AndyousupposethatIaskthesequestionswithanydesignofinjuringyouintheargument？
Nay，hereplied，’suppose’isnottheword——Iknowit；butyouwillbefoundout，andbysheerforceofargumentyouwillneverprevail。
Ishallnotmaketheattempt，mydearman；buttoavoidanymisunderstandingoccurringbetweenusinfuture，letmeask，inwhatsensedoyouspeakofarulerorstrongerwhoseinterest，asyouweresaying，hebeingthesuperior，itisjustthattheinferiorshouldexecute——ishearulerinthepopularorinthestrictsenseoftheterm？
Inthestrictestofallsenses，hesaid。Andnowcheatandplaytheinformerifyoucan；Iasknoquarteratyourhands。Butyouneverwillbeable，never。
Anddoyouimagine，Isaid，thatIamsuchamadmanastotryandcheat，Thrasymachus？Imightaswellshavealion。
Why，hesaid，youmadetheattemptaminuteago，andyoufailed。
Enough，Isaid，ofthesecivilities。ItwillbebetterthatIshouldaskyouaquestion：Isthephysician，takeninthatstrictsenseofwhichyouarespeaking，ahealerofthesickoramakerofmoney？
AndrememberthatIamnowspeakingofthetruephysician。
Ahealerofthesick，hereplied。
Andthepilot——thatistosay，thetruepilot——isheacaptainofsailorsorameresailor？
Acaptainofsailors。
Thecircumstancethathesailsintheshipisnottobetakenintoaccount；neitherishetobecalledasailor；thenamepilotbywhichheisdistinguishedhasnothingtodowithsailing，butissignificantofhisskillandofhisauthorityoverthesailors。
Verytrue，hesaid。
Now，Isaid，everyarthasaninterest？
Certainly。
Forwhichthearthastoconsiderandprovide？
Yes，thatistheaimofart。
Andtheinterestofanyartistheperfectionofit——thisandnothingelse？
Whatdoyoumean？
ImeanwhatImayillustratenegativelybytheexampleofthebody。Supposeyouweretoaskmewhetherthebodyisself—sufficingorhaswants，Ishouldreply：Certainlythebodyhaswants；forthebodymaybeillandrequiretobecured，andhasthereforeintereststowhichtheartofmedicineministers；andthisistheoriginandintentionofmedicine，asyouwillacknowledge。AmInotright？
Quiteright，hereplied。
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